You should never let your dog go through a door prior to yourself..
I am just starting to read the book “Culture Clash” (Jean Doneldson) and the author disputes the claim that you should never let your dog go through a door prior to yourself…to do so is a leadership issue…as stated by another dog expert in another publication (Patricia McConell).
I probably have misspelled the authors names.
I would like to hear what the list thinks about this clash of two highly respected, highly educated, highly experienced dog people, regarding this one issue. Because personally I am very confused!
It depends on the dog and your relationship.
Some dogs need strong leadership or they push the limits and try to take over. Some owners are kind of wimpy and let dogs take over. These dogs and people are the ones who need to have dogs sit at doorways, humans go out first, then dog gets permission to come out.
Some dogs just adore their owners, are biddable and compliant, would never think of challenging them, love to do what they are told, in fact live for it. Their owners never have an issue with their dogs, and everyday life works out fine.
I have a lot of dogs (4 adults and 2 one yr olds), and often have visiting dogs. I prefer for them to go out or come in *ahead* of me, so my way is clear and uncluttered. Sometimes I ask them to sit and won’t open the door until they do, sometimes I don’t. But, I never go out ahead of them. I often go out *without* them, and they don’t have a problem with that. My cue is “Stay In”, when going out is not an option. No problem, I don’t have to fight my way through the mob. I go out, they stay in.
Both ways are correct depending on what issues you are dealing with and what works for you.
I *think* Donaldson is stating that the one leadership issue (about whether humans enforce the rule to ask dogs to defer to humans at doorways) will not solve all problems. It surely won’t because, quite plainly, dogs do what works!
If dashing through doorways has been a richly-rewarding experience for a dog, so that it could chase after squirrels, etc., then most likely *that* dog will continue to want to dash through doorways. We frequently encounter such a problem when we take in rescue dogs for foster care. I like to teach deference at doorways (wait, automatic sit, look at me before the door opens), and then we go out *together* with dog at heel position, but I do so not for any high faluting complex dog-training concept at all. I teach it because I think of it as a safety lesson to help prevent a dog from dashing out and then perhaps racing into the street.
I’ll return to Donaldson again. We see the same thought about whether or not we should permit our dogs to sleep in the bedroom. Well, zillions of pet owners have no problem with that at all. Then along comes the *occasional* dog who wants to make an issue out of it, who wants to gr, gr, gr over the bed, challenging the owners’ right to be in their own bedrooms! No thank you, I wouldn’t give *that* dog bedroom privileges.
You’re right that both Donaldson and McConnell are highly respected.
However, they definitely come from differing perspectives, differing experiential backgrounds, and differing academic backgrounds. Maybe we should invite them to a seminar and ask them to duke it out on this question! (LOL)
I’ll probably stick with teaching deference at doorways, though, because I have found it easy to teach and I have also found it an extremely useful training lesson for everyday life, such as when visitors come to the home or when I take my dogs to other places.
It’s wonderful to hear that list members are reading these books and thinking about the material carefully.
McConnell is a biologist and ethologist that also trains dogs and counsels their owners. Jean Donaldson is a dog trainer that counsels dog owners…
We have an issue where is seems their opinions are “clashing” …pun intended.
McConnell will tell you dogs are canines and canines have certain “genetic behaviors” they are hardwired for…Jean Donaldson incidentally will tell you the same thing.
The door. The door is open and the *untrained dog* races out…
McConnell “The dog is untrained”.
Donaldson “The dog is untrained”.
Both would tell you if you don’t want a dog to race out the door then train it! McConnell *might* tell you that “who goes first” is important in dog land with *some* dogs certainly not all.
We have been conditioned to believe that dogs that race out doors are confident, dominant rascals. If that is so stand at a door with an untrained dog and let me know what happens. I am guessing 99.9% of all dogs will race out. Are all dogs dominant, confident, alpha rascals?! Julie I know you don’t think this is true nor does any one else.
All canines are not pack animals…but when we have a problem with a dog (generally thought of as a pack animal) we attribute much of their behavior using this model.
I don’t have the time this morning to go into this more but I will later it’s a GREAT thread in my opinion. Let me toss this out however to ponder…
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What is the cat doing when it races out the door? What is the cat doing when you move it off of the sofa/bed and is hisses or swats at you? What is the parrot doing when it bites if you get near it’s food bowl? Or try to clip it’s nails?
Alpha cat?! Dominant bird?! How would you handle the misbehavior (in human eyes) of a cat that races out the door or a bird that bites if you get near it’s food bowl. How would you interpret this behavior?!
In McConnell’s pamphlet Leader of the Pack (which I think is excellent) she lays out a program for benevolent leadership the dog is to do things like wait at doors, sit for dinner, not receive petting on demand etc. If you follow the program you will be perceived as your dog’s leader and in her opinion dogs do better with leaders or they will assume the leadership role.
Jean Donaldson will also talk about “impulse control” for rowdy youngsters she might also teach/suggest things to an owner like teaching a dog to wait at a door, sit for dinner etc. Now she would not say the dog now perceives you as his leader but rather the dog now has some training/impulse control.
*They’re both suggesting many of the same things but just interpreting it or sharing information using different analogies or models to explain *why* to do these things.
Personally I tend to lean more towards Jean Donaldson as far as an explanation goes.
Dogs do what works period. I don’t think for a moment when a dog runs out the door “today the door, tomorrow I take over the sofa AND next week I change the locks”. In other words when dogs misbehave I don’t think for a minute they do it because they have no respect for you or your leadership.
I think they have simply learned being “pushy, aggressive, obnoxious” works, period.
Why do some dogs try aggressive behavior and others never do well it is due in large part to what they were bred to do. A bored GSD, Rottie etc. will try “aggressive/territorial” behaviors that is what it has been bred for.
The dog that guards the yard may also resent anyone near his food bowl without training or someone disturbing him in his sleep/resting place.
Whereas a bored Retriever may never “try out” aggressive behaviors but will rather eat all of your stuff, develop lick granulomas or picas.
In other words I think very often owners are unaware and unintentionally train their dogs to be obnoxious and sometimes aggressive. If obnoxious/aggressive behaviors work the dog will continue to engage in these behaviors.
Programs like “Leader of the Pack” create a structure that is consistent and one doles out “privileges” as rewards contingent on desirable behaviors.
The owner is no longer jumping through hoops to meet the dogs needs but rather the dog is performing behaviors that the owner then rewards with “privileges”. Now one might see this as a “power struggle or shift” I simply see it as good training. In order to train we have to increase motivation which might mean limiting rewards or privileges so they have a more “special quality”.
Imagine life on a chaise lounge you want a back rub…you ring a bell. Your back is rubbed. You are hungry you ring a bell a meal is served. You want to be entertained you ring a bell…entertainment is provided. And on and on your every need is met the moment you “demand it” or ring your bell. Suddenly one day you ring and no one comes rushing to meet your next whim.
Would you…
Get up and get what you wanted yourself?
Would you give up?
Would you ring the bell louder?
Would you be mad as hell?!!
That *might be* the dog on the couch growling…”You have waited on me all day hand and foot and now you want ME?! to get off of the sofa?!” “Things don’t work like that in this house you know”.
Is this dog one that thinks he is the leader?! Or is this a dog whose “Reward/relationship” history has been I demand it and you provide it?!
Just different explanations for the same thing really.
I have a parrot that is not hand raised and he bites…I am working on taming him. His training is not involving a leadership program. What did I do…well for one I moved him into the other room away from the other parrots so he is more dependent on me. I removed sunflower seeds from his diet so that I have a reward he really wants to shape his behavior. I am making sure biting me never works and not biting always works…you get sunflower seeds, you get out of your cage and so on. When he bites he is not thinking “I’m the flock leader” he’s just not trained he is behaving according to his instincts -when scared, threatened or whatever bite.
Dogs “try out” stuff based on their instinctive behavior…they continue to do things because they work. Dogs are not projecting into the future “if I do this today then tomorrow” they are very intelligent but they are not that smart.
It is funny when reading various posts…the very things people are saying to support one side of the discussion seems to also support the other side.
In relationships – there is generally one who leads and one who follows. This can vary depending upon the circumstances of the moment. The one best equipped to deal with the situation tends to lead.
In some relationships, one member of the group (2 or more people), seems to “stand out” with natural leadership ability and the other members of the group naturally follow that leadership or they eventually leave the group. You don’t stay where you are always fighting…you know the old saying “lead, follow or get out of the way”.
In the “ring the bell for service” example – the one ringing the bell is obviously the one in control at that time. The one who gives the orders is the boss. If one is not willing to take the orders, then that one must either take over the position as boss or leave!
In a balanced relationship, where there is not a power struggle going on – where there is an accepted leader – it doesn’t really matter who goes out the door first. It doesn’t really matter who eats first or whether or not the dog sleeps on the bed.
In a situation where there is a power struggle going on – the dog wants to tell you what to do and you want to tell the dog what to do – it becomes much more important.
At my home, I have 4 bitches right now. I have a 6 year old Lakeland Terrier, a 19 mo. Airedale Terrier, a 9 mo. Lakeland Terrier and an almost 6 mo. Airedale Terrier (sister to the 19 mo. dog). These four dogs have made it very clear to me that pack order is very important to them!
The 9 mo. Lakeland has taken over the position of the 6 year Lakeland. Now, whenever the 9 mo. Lakie, Kelly, approaches Bobbi, the 6 yr old., Bobbi will roll over in submission. If Kelly approaches a door, Bobbi backs off. If Kelly wants on the couch, Bobbi jumps off. However, if Sheenah, the 19 mo. Airedale, approaches, Kelly will back off. Sheenah eats first, sleeps where she wants to. Gets first dibs on choice of toys, etc. The 6 mo. Airedale is now starting to see if she can work her way up from the bottom. She and Bobbi are “talking” about it.
This being said, if I approach, they all look to me as the leader. They will wait for me to give them their food. They will allow me to remove their food. If I want to sit – they move. They wait until invited to jump into my lap. I let them go out before me – it iseasier than getting poked behind by 4 wet noses…I don’t “dominate” them, we just have a “family” and I’m the head of that family.
I did not “create” the pack dynamics between the dogs…they worked it out for themselves. These are very pack oriented dogs and they have their own social structure. It is easy to see. These dogs were bred to hunt in packs – maybe that is why pack structure is so apparent. I’m sure with dogs that were not bred to hunt in packs, the importance of this structure would be lessened.
I often have other dogs come and go from my house because of rescue situations and so forth. With each addition and subtraction of dogs, the pack makeup shifts and the positions within the pack change.